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Senate Proceeding on Feb 13th, 2008 :: 2:39:46 to 3:03:03
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Sheldon Whitehouse

2:28:28 to 2:39:46( Edit History Discussion )
Speech By: Sheldon Whitehouse

Sheldon Whitehouse

2:39:23 to 2:39:46( Edit History Discussion )

Sheldon Whitehouse: a senator: mr. president? the presiding officer: the senator from west virginia. mr. rockefeller: mr. president, i almost have no words to praise the senator from rhode island for the eloquence

John Rockefeller

2:39:46 to 2:40:05( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: and strength of his speech, which was not only grounded in very deep substance, but was delivered with a nature that called the human spirit as well as grounded the futility of torture. so i congratulate

John Rockefeller

2:39:46 to 3:03:03( Edit History Discussion )
Speech By: John Rockefeller

John Rockefeller

2:40:05 to 2:40:20( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: him. mr. president, i also rise strongly in support of section 327, the intelligence authorization conference report. i recognize that it will be controversial. i don't care. it's important that some

John Rockefeller

2:40:20 to 2:40:33( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: background on this section be provided. some of it has been this morning. during the conference on the authorization bill, the con conferees adopted an amendment to conduct the interrogation with

John Rockefeller

2:40:33 to 2:40:52( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: the terms of the u.s. army field manual. that is, mr. president, the full membership of that conference committee, the full membership of the house intelligence committee and the senate intelligence

John Rockefeller

2:40:52 to 2:41:10( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: committee. so they all came to that conclusion. section 327 of the intelligence authorization conference report directly parallels in the detention treatment act that forbids subjecting anyone in

John Rockefeller

2:41:10 to 2:41:26( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: the department of defense custody to any treatment or technique of interrogation not authorized by and listed in the united states army field manual on intelligence interrogation. section 327 327

John Rockefeller

2:41:26 to 2:41:38( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: applies the same restrictions to the intelligence community at large. 327 is therefore to require all of the united states government and their operating interrogation aspects under a single interrogation

John Rockefeller

2:41:38 to 2:41:53( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: standard, the standard set by the united states military. adopting the military standard for interrogation is the universal -- as the universal standard makes sense and i hope that some of my colleagues

John Rockefeller

2:41:53 to 2:42:08( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: are listening. it is the members of the military who most benefit from reciprocal obligations of the geneva convention requiring humane treatments of prisoners and most likely to be subjected to retaliation

John Rockefeller

2:42:08 to 2:42:24( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: thanks to the failure of the united states to follow those obligations. that statement is frequently made and it is frequently absorbed and discarded. just think about it. retaliation is the way of the

John Rockefeller

2:42:24 to 2:42:41( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: world and it will be no different here. # what we do to others, they will do to us, but worse. th u.s. army field manual on interrogation was revised in september of 2006 after significant interagency review.

John Rockefeller

2:42:41 to 2:42:56( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: this included a review by the central intelligence agency by providing a number of approach strategies like the incentives approach, emotional approach, and the mutt and jeff approach. the army field manual

John Rockefeller

2:42:56 to 2:43:10( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: gives interrogators sufficient flexibility to shape the interrogation. it doesn't delineate exactly how. it gives them a lot of flexibility. the army field manual also explicitly prohibits waterboardinging,

John Rockefeller

2:43:10 to 2:43:26( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: forcing a detainee to be naked, inducing hyperthermia or subjecting a detainee is beatings as well as a number of other things. all of this raises the question at the heart of this debate, should

John Rockefeller

2:43:26 to 2:43:42( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: the central intelligence agency, the well-known c.i.a., be allowed to use coercive interrogation techniques to obtain interrogation from al qaeda detainees, this debate is about more than legality.

John Rockefeller

2:43:42 to 2:43:57( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: it is about more than ensuring that the intelligence community has the tools that it needs to protect us. it is also about morality, way we see our ourselves, who we are, what we want to be as nation,

John Rockefeller

2:43:57 to 2:44:12( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: and what we represent to the world. what we represent to the world has a direct effect on the number of people determine that they want to joined the jihadist movement and come after us. and that's

John Rockefeller

2:44:12 to 2:44:27( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: true of about 06 06 nations it is a decision that should be left to members of congress who are the representatives of the american people. in the early period of the c.i.a. program's existence, i

John Rockefeller

2:44:27 to 2:44:44( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: repeatedly called and i'm extremely frustrated by this, extremely frustrated, i repeatedly called for an intelligence committee investigation into the agency's detention interrogation practices. that was in

John Rockefeller

2:44:44 to 2:44:59( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: the committee. i was at that point vice chairman and could not control, obviously, the vote, and so on margins -- vote margins of one, we lost. we could not get anything going in the way of studying the

John Rockefeller

2:44:59 to 2:45:13( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: subject, investigation of the subject. so then i moved to the floor, tried toave the c.i.a. brief all of the members of the committee on the interrogation program. i recognize that -- i recognize that

John Rockefeller

2:45:13 to 2:45:30( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: assessing the need for the c.i.a.'s enhanced interrogation techniquings, intelligence obtained from techniques and america's position in the world were what we in congress needed to debate and discuss

John Rockefeller

2:45:30 to 2:45:41( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: and we did not.~ about a year and a half ago the full membership of the intelligence community was finally provided information about c.i.a.'s interrogation program. it's all part of oversight, mr.

John Rockefeller

2:45:41 to 2:45:56( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: president. it's all -- they're not accustomed to us doing that, not just the c.i.a., but the intelligence community is not accustomed to having the representatives of the people ask questions. they

John Rockefeller

2:45:56 to 2:46:10( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: think it's an elite field for them. they'r proud of their traditions. they fight among themselves. and they don't build into their thinking what it is that the congress might feel about this. about a year

John Rockefeller

2:46:10 to 2:46:22( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: and a half ago, as i say, we were brought into their interrogation program, and since that time our committee has held multiple hearings on that subject. we have done our best to learn as much as possible

John Rockefeller

2:46:22 to 2:46:34( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: about the basis for and the consequences of the c.i.a.'s program as well as interrogation in more general terms. these briefings and hearings have led the committee to conclude that all agencies

John Rockefeller

2:46:34 to 2:46:50( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: of the united states government should be required to comply with the single standard for interrogation of detainees. the army field manual provides the standards of humane treatment and indisputably

John Rockefeller

2:46:50 to 2:47:04( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: implies with our international obligation under the geneva convention as well as u.s. laws. the c.i.a. has briefed the committee on several occasions about its interrogation of al qaeda detainees. the c.i.a.

John Rockefeller

2:47:04 to 2:47:22( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: has described the basis for the program and why they think it should be allowed to continue. although the c.i.a. has described the information obtained from its program, i have heard nothing -- nothing -- mr.

John Rockefeller

2:47:22 to 2:47:37( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: president, that leads me to believe that information obtained from interrogation using coercive interrogation techniques has prevented an imminent terrorist attack. this is true for a very simple reason.

John Rockefeller

2:47:37 to 2:47:54( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: once a terrorist is captured, his fellow plotters understandably change their plans. in other words, i do not believe the c.i.a. has ever been in an actual ticking time bomb scenario, nor do i

John Rockefeller

2:47:54 to 2:48:05( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: think it's ever likely to be placed in that situation. that does not mean that the information obtained from the program has not been valuable. of course information about al qaeda is exceedingly

John Rockefeller

2:48:05 to 2:48:19( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: valuable from an intelligence standpoints. it's bits and pieces of information that allow our intelligence professionals to assess al qaeda's capabilities and determine how best to protect ourselves

John Rockefeller

2:48:19 to 2:48:34( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: as a nation. but more to the point, i have not heard nor have i seen any evidence that supports the intelligence community's claim that using enhanced interrogation techniques is the only way to

John Rockefeller

2:48:34 to 2:48:49( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: obtain this type of intelligence. that is to get what they need to get. after 9/11, the intelligence community decided that the coercive interrogation tactics were the best way to obtain intelligence.

John Rockefeller

2:48:49 to 2:49:04( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: it was a little bit understandable tn in terms of just the general panic of the nation. but the intelligence community, i say this gravely, did not research, did not take the time to research what

John Rockefeller

2:49:04 to 2:49:19( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: interrogation techniques might be most effective to come to this conclusion, nor did they reach out to the intertkpwaeurts with -- interrogators with experience, particularly those questioning islamic

John Rockefeller

2:49:19 to 2:49:34( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: terrorists. they did not do that. they were going to do it their way. they simply assumed, and they simply still assume that coercive interrogation techniques were the best way to obtain information.

John Rockefeller

2:49:34 to 2:49:48( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: to this senator, this was clearly a flawed approach. but at this point the administration is so invested in the use of these techniques that they can no longer psychologically or otherwise step back to

John Rockefeller

2:49:48 to 2:50:09( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: assess what methods are most effective to obtain intelligence. they go by the mantra. they go by what has been done before. to address this question, the committee explored how other government agencies

John Rockefeller

2:50:09 to 2:50:30( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: conduct interrogation. the committee considered critical interrogations of individuals who do not want to disclose information, people who are just hard-headed and don't want to do it. interrogations or

John Rockefeller

2:50:30 to 2:50:45( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: obtaining information can prevent widespread injury or death. every day military interrogators in iraq question individuals with information that can save lives. every single day. questions about where explosive

John Rockefeller

2:50:45 to 2:51:04( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: devices have been hidden and a lot more. now, the c.i.a. loves to argue, oh, but they are just 18- to 20-year-old kids. they don't have the experience. we have experience. we have experience. we've

John Rockefeller

2:51:04 to 2:51:21( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: been at it. we're the professionals. and they did that at a public, open meeting just a week or so ago. now there's something called the f.b.i. they deal with pretty bad people too. they also -- their

John Rockefeller

2:51:21 to 2:51:38( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: agents face life-and-death situations in both the world of terrorism and everyday criminality. some of the individuals that the f.b.i. interrogates are senior leaders, individuals who are committed to

John Rockefeller

2:51:38 to 2:51:51( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: staying silent and not sharing the information they possess. in fact, the f.b.i. agents recently questioned the top al qaeda leaders who were form early in c.i.a. custody -- who were formerly in c.i.a.

John Rockefeller

2:51:51 to 2:52:02( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: custody, gathering enough information from those al qaeda leaders to build cases for trial, which we have recently read about. some of these f.b.i. agents have been conducting interrogations for two

John Rockefeller

2:52:02 to 2:52:18( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: or three decades. it doesn't meet my standard of 18- to 20-year olds. they are, without question, recognized experts in their field, and they're remarkably effective at obtaining the information that

John Rockefeller

2:52:18 to 2:52:30( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: they need. yet, both the f.b.i. and the military have told us that they do not need enhanced interrogation techniques. are these naive organizations? are these people that don't know what they're talking

John Rockefeller

2:52:30 to 2:52:44( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: about? are these people that don't have stakes at hand? they're out in the battlefield. they're not at guantanamo. they're out in the battlefield. they have told the committee that the interrogation

John Rockefeller

2:52:44 to 2:52:57( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: techniques, including in the army field manual, provide them the flexibility that they need to obtain the information that they need. indeed, representatives from both the military and the f.b.i., both

John Rockefeller

2:52:57 to 2:53:13( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: stated emphatically that they have the tools they need to obtain necessary and reliable intelligence. after considering the c.i.a.'s argument and those of the f.b.i. and the u.s. military, i am simply

John Rockefeller

2:53:13 to 2:53:30( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: not convinced that harsh c.i.a. tactics were necessary, are necessary to obtain necessary intelligence information. we also had people who were neutral, who had experience interrogation but were not

John Rockefeller

2:53:30 to 2:53:49( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: currently in the practice of it. and their information to us also was to terrorize, to torture, to man handle, to do whatever. it doesn't work. human beings are human beings, and there are ways

John Rockefeller

2:53:49 to 2:54:06( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: to gett them. and in fact, coercive interrogation techniques can lead prisoners, and probably will in many cases, to say nothing, to say nothing at all for the purpose of stopping the interrogation.

John Rockefeller

2:54:06 to 2:54:24( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: as a result, coercive techniques can produce information that is fabricated and ultimately lead to flawed and misleading intelligence reports. this is not academic or hypothetical. that intelligence

John Rockefeller

2:54:24 to 2:54:41( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: is a real danger in the early years and months after 2001, we were awash with really bad intelligence in washington, washington, d.c., not all of it coming out of coercive techniques but just out of

John Rockefeller

2:54:41 to 2:54:58( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: a complete misunderstanding of what intelligence really is all about. in fact, there was a condescension from the administration about the role of intelligence in providing reliable infmation. and so

John Rockefeller

2:54:58 to 2:55:14( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: they went to their profound guru such as ahmed chalibi, and that flowed into the vice president's office. so this is not an academic or hypothetical point. bad intelligence is a real danger, mr. president,

John Rockefeller

2:55:14 to 2:55:25( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: when employing coercive interrogation techniques. intelligence reporting from al qaeda detainee -- very famous one named al libi, there is a lot but this is a particular al libi who said iraq was providing

John Rockefeller

2:55:25 to 2:55:45( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: training in chemical and biological weapons prior to the war, was publicly truplted by the -- was publicly trumpeted by the president of the united states, by the secretary of defense, by the secretary

John Rockefeller

2:55:45 to 2:56:02( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: of state and other senior administration officials as proof of operating links between iraq and al qaeda and, therefore, as a basis for going in to invade iraq. of course that is basically what all of us feel

John Rockefeller

2:56:02 to 2:56:17( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: now, that what the president said on march 23 in the other body, in the speech which gave him the authority to go to war was based on intelligence which was almost entirely incorrect and virtually

John Rockefeller

2:56:17 to 2:56:33( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: everything he said, other than some rhetoric here and there, everything he said turned out to be not backed up by intelligence, to be false, to be wrong and, therefore, was one of the most extraordinary disservices

John Rockefeller

2:56:33 to 2:56:52( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: to the american people, not t speak of the dead and the wounded, that i can remember in my lifetime. but the nation was inspired by the thought of fighting terror, and so on they went. ultimately,

John Rockefeller

2:56:52 to 2:57:06( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: incidentally al libby, who said these things, recanted. he recanted. and it was determined by the c.i.a. that he had fabricated this central allegation of this link between al qaeda and iraq. and other

John Rockefeller

2:57:06 to 2:57:22( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: information based on his claim of mistreatment during the interrogations. so this is not an academic point. america went to war based on an alleged threat that was partially based on fabricated information

John Rockefeller

2:57:22 to 2:57:38( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: produced under coercive interrogation. apart from the question of efficacy and the risk of bad intelligence, the committees committees explored consequences of having a secret standards of interrogation

John Rockefeller

2:57:38 to 2:57:52( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: for the intelligence community. this is where the need for section 327 becomes clear. since the disclosure of information about the existence of secret prisons and the use of harsh interrogation techniques,

John Rockefeller

2:57:52 to 2:58:06( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: the reputation and moral authority of the united states have suffered dramatically. it's not a casual statement. one can say, yeah, a lot of people have said that. but when that's true, that means that

John Rockefeller

2:58:06 to 2:58:26( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: in africa and southeast asia and in south america and in the middle east, it becomes much easier for al qaeda and those who would do us ill and people within the united states who may go on to -- belong

John Rockefeller

2:58:26 to 2:58:42( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: to no formal organization like that at all, to develop anger, to develop meaning for their lives because they don't see hope in their lives, so they join. they join a group that will do damage. and

John Rockefeller

2:58:42 to 2:58:54( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: some of our techniques have increased that a great deal. rather than being a world leader in human rights, we've become known for the unapologetic use of aggressive interrogation techniques. indeed,

John Rockefeller

2:58:54 to 2:59:08( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: even as canada included us on the list of cntries that engage in torture. allowing the c.i.a. to continue to use crcive interrogation techniques that are not part of the army field manual is just another

John Rockefeller

2:59:08 to 2:59:19( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: piece of fodder for terrorist propaganda. that cannot be underestimated, not just a rhetorical statement. it cannot be underestimated. it's no way to wind the hearts and minds of the muslim world. ultimately

John Rockefeller

2:59:19 to 2:59:32( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: the war on terrorism is a war of ideas. without a public standards of humane treatment, it is impossible to convince the world that we take our international obligation seriously, that we treat people

John Rockefeller

2:59:32 to 2:59:46( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: hanely, and that we are a country of laws and that we adhere to these laws. we must uphold those standards that differentiate us from the terrorists that we are fighting. if our government continues

John Rockefeller

2:59:46 to 3:00:03( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: to use secret interrogation techniques that many are convinced constitute torture, america's standing in the world will continue to be down even more. and every time it goes down, there are more people who

John Rockefeller

3:00:03 to 3:00:16( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: sign up to do us harm. the israeli supreme court concluded when it forebade the use of harsh interrogation techniques the following -- quote -- "this is the destiny of democracy. it's -- as not all

John Rockefeller

3:00:16 to 3:00:35( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: means are acceptable to it and not all practices employed by its enemies are open before it. although a democracy must often fight with one hand tied behind its back, it nonetheless has the upper

John Rockefeller

3:00:35 to 3:00:51( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: hand."~ preserving the rule of law, the recognition of an individual's liberty constitutes an important component in its understanding of security. at the end of the day, they strengthen its spirit and

John Rockefeller

3:00:51 to 3:01:03( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: its strength and allow it to overcome its difficulties." close quote. so, in closing, passing section 327 is critical to gaining our moral authority in the world which is a little bit too easy to say. it's

John Rockefeller

3:01:03 to 3:01:17( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: going to take a lot more than that. and convincing people that the united states believes in due process and human rights rather than fear. having a separate standard of interrogations for the c.i.a.,

John Rockefeller

3:01:17 to 3:01:35( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: as much as it may want to have it, as much as it may have pride in having its secret standards, as much as they talk about 18 to 20-year-olds is simply not worth the cost. i therefore urge my colleagues

John Rockefeller

3:01:35 to 3:01:49( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: to -- well, support 327. now, no matter how theenate votes on this motion, if it comes up, the c.i.a. should very carefully consider the actions of the house and senate intelligence committee, all

John Rockefeller

3:01:49 to 3:02:01( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: members. they need to consider what this group -- large group concluded, that members of our -- the members of our committee are the only members of congress who have been briefed on the program and who

John Rockefeller

3:02:01 to 3:02:14( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: have privy to the administration's best arguments and support of the program. that has to be said from time to time and it sounds a big arrogant. but there are people on the committee of intelligence

John Rockefeller

3:02:14 to 3:02:23( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: in both the house and senate, they get briefed and know things that are not necessarily known to the rest of the congress. and, yet, despite those briefings, a bipartisan majority of both the house

John Rockefeller

3:02:23 to 3:02:37( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: and senate intelligence committee have determined that it is in the nation's best interest to have one standard of interrogation, a standard that can be publicly judged by the entire world and this

John Rockefeller

3:02:37 to 3:02:48( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: judgment by the representatives of the american people. that is what we did inhe conference committee cannot be ignored. mr. president, i yield the floor. the presiding officer: the senator from utah.

John Rockefeller

3:02:48 to 3:03:03( Edit History Discussion )

John Rockefeller: a senator: mr. president, i want to compliment my distinguished friend from west virginia. he has been a very bipartisan worker on the senate select committee on intelligence. i have been on that

Orrin Hatch

3:03:03 to 3:03:15( Edit History Discussion )

Orrin Hatch: committee for an awful long time, and i have a lot of respect for him. i wanted to make that for the record. we don't always agree, but, by gosh, i know that he puts in a lot of time to try to do

Orrin Hatch

3:03:03 to 3:17:51( Edit History Discussion )
Speech By: Orrin Hatch

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